Yeah. What he said.
Archived Lazy LOD's??
- Thread starter obx
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- May 15, 2011
- Messages
- 1,856
she
The Mule
Jack Of All Workcenters
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2011
- Messages
- 344
Our former DTL(got a BIG promotion) would have bounced your STL so fast it wouldn't even have been funny. They always made it a point to make sure everyone pitches in, from the STL on down, and would take the time to asked TMs how things are when they had their visits. Met the new DTL the other day, still reserving judgement...
redeye58
Hasta Ba Rista, Baby!
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2011
- Messages
- 21,393
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2011
- Messages
- 84
Our new DTL doesn't seem like he believes in the "hands off" approach either. He has been talking to the regular TLs and TMs on every visit. Funny, as a manager I always felt that you should be getting your hands dirty. How am I supposed to lead a team if I don't show any interest in what is going on? Truth is, you can't. Granted I would not want an STLs job, that is no excuse for him to direct his execs to sit in TSC all day laughing and playing on the computer.
If you aren't going to be part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
If you aren't going to be part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
<sigh>
It really doesn't matter what some of you guys *think* makes a good manager, or *think* ETLs should be doing. *Federal law* says that a salaried exempt employee must spend most of their time *not* performing hourly tasks.
Here is another article directly from the federal government that says:
"To qualify for the executive employee exemption, all of the following tests must be met:
The employee must be compensated on a salary basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $455 per week;
The employee’s primary duty must be managing the enterprise, or managing a customarily recognized department or subdivision of the enterprise;
The employee must customarily and regularly direct the work of at least two or more other full-time employees or their equivalent; and
The employee must have the authority to hire or fire other employees, or the employee’s suggestions and recommendations as to the hiring, firing, advancement, promotion or any other change of status of other employees must be given particular weight.
Primary Duty
“Primary duty” means the principal, main, major or most important duty that the employee performs. Determination of an employee’s primary duty must be based on all the facts in a particular case, with the major emphasis on the character of the employee’s job as a whole.
Job titles do not determine exempt status. In order for an exemption to apply, an employee’s specific job duties and salary must meet all the requirements of the Department’s regulations."
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17b_executive.htm
In other words - you can't not pay employees overtime and salary and then have them do hourly work that would normally require payment of overtime under the law. That is ILLEGAL.
The fact is, that's nice some stores have ETLs who choose to be more "hands on", but the fact is if they are being "hands on" all the time doing hourly work then they are in fact in violation of the Target salaried employee handbook which states as exempt employees they must be spending most of their time *not* doing hourly work as per the law. Technically, they could be written up/termed for doing so. If your STLs/DTLs are turning a blind eye to it, they could be as well. For salaried employees, this is the equivalent of an hourly employee working off the clock. In other words, it is highly illegal, against company policy, and a violation that can easily result in a term.
The fact is, no one has called them on it so they are letting it slide. (Same for say, an hourly TM who comes in late all the time but never gets written up. They *should* be written up, but everyone is quietly letting it slide)
Technically, according to the DOL web site, any ETL doing a large amount of hourly employee work is able to sue Target for lost wages (got any idea how much overtime is for someone making 50K a year? About $52 an hour. Imagine an ETL saying he has been doing hourly work the three years and wants to sue for all that time....), report a violation of labor laws to the Department of Labor so that the employer can be fined by the government, and is entitled to sue for damages.
Also - the guy who said ETLs need to "know how to do my job".... knowing how to do your job and actually doing it every day are two different things. I agree, them knowing the job helps them be better leaders. The fact is, however, they don't even need to know it. That is why you are hired to do it. That is like saying a manager at Shell Oil with a 6 year business degree that is in charge of computer engineers with 6 year degrees, petroleum engineers with 6 year degrees, and chemists with 6 year degrees needs to go and learn all of their jobs before managing them. That is just stupid. They are hired by that manager precisely because they can do work for him that they know how to do.
The fact is, TM hourly work requires not even a high school education. I have been a GSTL and hardlines TL my friend. I have trained more TMs, TLs, and ETLs than I can count. Generally I could train anyone to do any task in about an hour. What we did was not exactly rocket science. If your ETLs ever really need to learn the job, it won't take very long for them to be trained.
It really doesn't matter what some of you guys *think* makes a good manager, or *think* ETLs should be doing. *Federal law* says that a salaried exempt employee must spend most of their time *not* performing hourly tasks.
Here is another article directly from the federal government that says:
"To qualify for the executive employee exemption, all of the following tests must be met:
The employee must be compensated on a salary basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $455 per week;
The employee’s primary duty must be managing the enterprise, or managing a customarily recognized department or subdivision of the enterprise;
The employee must customarily and regularly direct the work of at least two or more other full-time employees or their equivalent; and
The employee must have the authority to hire or fire other employees, or the employee’s suggestions and recommendations as to the hiring, firing, advancement, promotion or any other change of status of other employees must be given particular weight.
Primary Duty
“Primary duty” means the principal, main, major or most important duty that the employee performs. Determination of an employee’s primary duty must be based on all the facts in a particular case, with the major emphasis on the character of the employee’s job as a whole.
Job titles do not determine exempt status. In order for an exemption to apply, an employee’s specific job duties and salary must meet all the requirements of the Department’s regulations."
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17b_executive.htm
In other words - you can't not pay employees overtime and salary and then have them do hourly work that would normally require payment of overtime under the law. That is ILLEGAL.
The fact is, that's nice some stores have ETLs who choose to be more "hands on", but the fact is if they are being "hands on" all the time doing hourly work then they are in fact in violation of the Target salaried employee handbook which states as exempt employees they must be spending most of their time *not* doing hourly work as per the law. Technically, they could be written up/termed for doing so. If your STLs/DTLs are turning a blind eye to it, they could be as well. For salaried employees, this is the equivalent of an hourly employee working off the clock. In other words, it is highly illegal, against company policy, and a violation that can easily result in a term.
The fact is, no one has called them on it so they are letting it slide. (Same for say, an hourly TM who comes in late all the time but never gets written up. They *should* be written up, but everyone is quietly letting it slide)
Technically, according to the DOL web site, any ETL doing a large amount of hourly employee work is able to sue Target for lost wages (got any idea how much overtime is for someone making 50K a year? About $52 an hour. Imagine an ETL saying he has been doing hourly work the three years and wants to sue for all that time....), report a violation of labor laws to the Department of Labor so that the employer can be fined by the government, and is entitled to sue for damages.
Also - the guy who said ETLs need to "know how to do my job".... knowing how to do your job and actually doing it every day are two different things. I agree, them knowing the job helps them be better leaders. The fact is, however, they don't even need to know it. That is why you are hired to do it. That is like saying a manager at Shell Oil with a 6 year business degree that is in charge of computer engineers with 6 year degrees, petroleum engineers with 6 year degrees, and chemists with 6 year degrees needs to go and learn all of their jobs before managing them. That is just stupid. They are hired by that manager precisely because they can do work for him that they know how to do.
The fact is, TM hourly work requires not even a high school education. I have been a GSTL and hardlines TL my friend. I have trained more TMs, TLs, and ETLs than I can count. Generally I could train anyone to do any task in about an hour. What we did was not exactly rocket science. If your ETLs ever really need to learn the job, it won't take very long for them to be trained.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2011
- Messages
- 778
Wouldn't it just be easier then to make them hourly and adjust their salary? Suppose Etl Bob makes 50,000 a year. That's $961 a week before taxes, which would mean Bob makes $24 an hour if he works 40 hours a week. Why don't they have an accountant figure out what the hourly rate would be for Bob to work x amount of overtime in a given year and still gross 50,000.
They'd be getting paid the same, they would have the same responsibilities!
And they couldn't use the "violation of federal law" excuse to get out of working!
Ps, the best ETL-LOG I ever worked for (several years ago) spent about 75 percent of his time doing "hourly work" from the days workload, and the other 25 percent managing and developing his team. He was in his 50's, had worked retail all his life, and could multi-task like no other and outwork team members 30 years his junior. I may not have agreed with everything he ever did, but he could run the flow process perfectly. He planned ahead, took care of things before they became a problem, trained and developed his team, and he was actually a LEADER and a MAN.
They'd be getting paid the same, they would have the same responsibilities!
And they couldn't use the "violation of federal law" excuse to get out of working!
Ps, the best ETL-LOG I ever worked for (several years ago) spent about 75 percent of his time doing "hourly work" from the days workload, and the other 25 percent managing and developing his team. He was in his 50's, had worked retail all his life, and could multi-task like no other and outwork team members 30 years his junior. I may not have agreed with everything he ever did, but he could run the flow process perfectly. He planned ahead, took care of things before they became a problem, trained and developed his team, and he was actually a LEADER and a MAN.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
"Wouldn't it just be easier then to make them hourly and adjust their salary? Suppose Etl Bob makes 50,000 a year. That's $961 a week before taxes, which would mean Bob makes $24 an hour if he works 40 hours a week. Why don't they have an accountant figure out what the hourly rate would be for Bob to work x amount of overtime in a given year and still gross 50,000. "
Honestly, because it is the cheapest way to pay managers, and Target always needs an ETL "on call". SR TLs, for example, when they are off the clock they are off the clock. ETLs are always on the clock, so to speak. This gives Target huge staffing advantages from a management staffing standpoint. Also, Target insists on having college grads only for ETL jobs. As shallow as it is, many college grads think they deserve the "prestige" of being salary. (I am sure you have heard ETLs brag that they are salary before) So this gives Target a competitive hiring advantage when they can get some 22 year old college grad excited to work for them because they will be salary.
As to why not make ETLs hourly employees and then have them do hourly work..... for the same reason your flow TMs are not making $36/hour and working overtime. You just don't pay hourly workers that kind of money. Let's say flow is really getting hit during 4th quarter. It is cheaper to just hire five part time flow TL to come in for $8/hour with no overtime (with no benefits for a total for all 5 of $40/hour) than pay for five ETLs to work overtime to stay over and work flow at an overtime rate of $36/hour per ETL for a total of $180/hour for all five to stay and work overtime doing hourly work. Right now, when an ETL works over 40 hours they are basically working for free. That means Target can have them manage stores after 40 hours and basically pay them nothing more. In other words, they are getting a manager to run the store for free. That is a huge benefit from an employers point of view.
Let's pretend the federal government didn't have rules about who could be salary and exempt from overtime payment.... let's pretend they didn't require salaried exempt employees to not do hourly work. You know what Target would do? That's right, every TM in the building would be salary. (an incredibly low salary, of course) Ok flow team - all of you are now salary at the rate of $1500 a month. Also, you are all required to work 60 hour weeks with no overtime. Which basically means you are working for no pay 80 hours a month.
Now do you see why the federal government doesn't allow salaried employees to do the work of hourly workers and only allows upper management and professional workers to be salaried and exempt from overtime? Employers would totally take advantage of the situation and get out of control.
Honestly, because it is the cheapest way to pay managers, and Target always needs an ETL "on call". SR TLs, for example, when they are off the clock they are off the clock. ETLs are always on the clock, so to speak. This gives Target huge staffing advantages from a management staffing standpoint. Also, Target insists on having college grads only for ETL jobs. As shallow as it is, many college grads think they deserve the "prestige" of being salary. (I am sure you have heard ETLs brag that they are salary before) So this gives Target a competitive hiring advantage when they can get some 22 year old college grad excited to work for them because they will be salary.
As to why not make ETLs hourly employees and then have them do hourly work..... for the same reason your flow TMs are not making $36/hour and working overtime. You just don't pay hourly workers that kind of money. Let's say flow is really getting hit during 4th quarter. It is cheaper to just hire five part time flow TL to come in for $8/hour with no overtime (with no benefits for a total for all 5 of $40/hour) than pay for five ETLs to work overtime to stay over and work flow at an overtime rate of $36/hour per ETL for a total of $180/hour for all five to stay and work overtime doing hourly work. Right now, when an ETL works over 40 hours they are basically working for free. That means Target can have them manage stores after 40 hours and basically pay them nothing more. In other words, they are getting a manager to run the store for free. That is a huge benefit from an employers point of view.
Let's pretend the federal government didn't have rules about who could be salary and exempt from overtime payment.... let's pretend they didn't require salaried exempt employees to not do hourly work. You know what Target would do? That's right, every TM in the building would be salary. (an incredibly low salary, of course) Ok flow team - all of you are now salary at the rate of $1500 a month. Also, you are all required to work 60 hour weeks with no overtime. Which basically means you are working for no pay 80 hours a month.
Now do you see why the federal government doesn't allow salaried employees to do the work of hourly workers and only allows upper management and professional workers to be salaried and exempt from overtime? Employers would totally take advantage of the situation and get out of control.
Last edited:
The Mule
Jack Of All Workcenters
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2011
- Messages
- 344
No one is saying for an ETL to completely take over a TMs role. What I'm saying is that ETLs/STLs should get in there with their team from time to time, say 10-15% of their work week. It opens the lines of communication, builds a respect between TMs and management and gives the respective ETLs a better understanding of the areas of their workcenters. They can be told all they want the "Reverse Logistics is done in X manner", but until they are around to see it from time to time they will miss out on the quirks of the system that the regular TMs see on a day to day basis. Their primary duty is as an ETL/STL, but they can still help out.
As far as they being classified as exempt or not, that is a completely different subject. A good manager is a good manager regardless of the environment and shouldn't be affected because of how Target wants to label and pay them.
In the end though, I think we can all agree we have some varied opinions on this subject and it is all most likely beyond our scope to bring about change as things sit now. Let the venting continue....
As far as they being classified as exempt or not, that is a completely different subject. A good manager is a good manager regardless of the environment and shouldn't be affected because of how Target wants to label and pay them.
In the end though, I think we can all agree we have some varied opinions on this subject and it is all most likely beyond our scope to bring about change as things sit now. Let the venting continue....
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
"As far as they being classified as exempt or not, that is a completely different subject. A good manager is a good manager regardless of the environment and shouldn't be affected because of how Target wants to label and pay them.
In the end though, I think we can all agree we have some varied opinions on this subject and it is all most likely beyond our scope to bring about change as things sit now. Let the venting continue.... "
This is not a subject that you can have an "opinion" on, and it is not "just how Target wants to label them". It is how the federal government under federal labor law says they must be labeled and paid. It is the law, period. You can have an opinion that you think hourly TMs should be able to work off the clock, that doesn't change the *fact* that it is highly illegal to do so. As John Adams once said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.".
You are right that working 10% of the time doing hourly tasks probably wouldn't be a major issue. The problem is, how long until 10% becomes 50%? How long until some ETLs decide to sue? How long until the federal government comes down hard on Target for violating federal labor law? I think Target would rather not take that chance, and that is why the written rule at Target for salaried employees is that they are there to manage. Obviously doing some hourly work is not a big deal, but if corporate gets wind of a store that ETLs spending 50+% of their time doing hourly work, that store is going to be in for an unpleasant visit from HQ..... I think that is why some ETLs/STLs would rather not even go there. Obviously some stores are a little more flexible, but they are still playing with fire by doing so.
Also, some TMs that are on this site honestly probably were not aware federal law prevented salaried exempt employees from doing hourly work. So I think this has probably been a learning experience for them, and I hope they cut their ETLs some slack next time they are angry their ETLs aren't spending their days working along side them. (which was the general attitude expressed when this thread started) People on this site are very quick to bring up the law when it comes to TMs getting breaks, lunches, working off the clock, etc. But they are very quick to forget salaried exempt employees also are subject to legal requirements, and they are no less strict than the rules that pertain to hourly employees. If someone posted on this site "My STL has 5 TMs working off the clock every day!" it would be a *huge* issue. Well, in the eyes of the law having 5 salaried exempt employees doing hourly work is just as a huge of an issue with very serious legal consequences. Will that STL making TMs work off the clock get away with it? Probably, for a while anyway. Eventually he would get caught though, and there would be hell to pay at that time. (Remember that Wal-mart was having thousands of their employees work off the clock and they got away with it for years before the federal government came down on them) Same situation for ETLs.
In the end though, I think we can all agree we have some varied opinions on this subject and it is all most likely beyond our scope to bring about change as things sit now. Let the venting continue.... "
This is not a subject that you can have an "opinion" on, and it is not "just how Target wants to label them". It is how the federal government under federal labor law says they must be labeled and paid. It is the law, period. You can have an opinion that you think hourly TMs should be able to work off the clock, that doesn't change the *fact* that it is highly illegal to do so. As John Adams once said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.".
You are right that working 10% of the time doing hourly tasks probably wouldn't be a major issue. The problem is, how long until 10% becomes 50%? How long until some ETLs decide to sue? How long until the federal government comes down hard on Target for violating federal labor law? I think Target would rather not take that chance, and that is why the written rule at Target for salaried employees is that they are there to manage. Obviously doing some hourly work is not a big deal, but if corporate gets wind of a store that ETLs spending 50+% of their time doing hourly work, that store is going to be in for an unpleasant visit from HQ..... I think that is why some ETLs/STLs would rather not even go there. Obviously some stores are a little more flexible, but they are still playing with fire by doing so.
Also, some TMs that are on this site honestly probably were not aware federal law prevented salaried exempt employees from doing hourly work. So I think this has probably been a learning experience for them, and I hope they cut their ETLs some slack next time they are angry their ETLs aren't spending their days working along side them. (which was the general attitude expressed when this thread started) People on this site are very quick to bring up the law when it comes to TMs getting breaks, lunches, working off the clock, etc. But they are very quick to forget salaried exempt employees also are subject to legal requirements, and they are no less strict than the rules that pertain to hourly employees. If someone posted on this site "My STL has 5 TMs working off the clock every day!" it would be a *huge* issue. Well, in the eyes of the law having 5 salaried exempt employees doing hourly work is just as a huge of an issue with very serious legal consequences. Will that STL making TMs work off the clock get away with it? Probably, for a while anyway. Eventually he would get caught though, and there would be hell to pay at that time. (Remember that Wal-mart was having thousands of their employees work off the clock and they got away with it for years before the federal government came down on them) Same situation for ETLs.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2011
- Messages
- 1,382
Soooo, when I do my etls job, I am violating state law?
The Mule
Jack Of All Workcenters
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2011
- Messages
- 344
StateofTarget,
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/
Noun:
1) A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
2)The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I can have an opinion on any damn thing I please. So can you. In fact, you can have the opinion that my opinion is wrong, and I will defend your right to view it as such, but don't try to deny me my opinion outright. We are not discussing the explicit facts of federal labor laws in the context of this thread(and if we were, I freely admit that you seem to be well versed on this subject), but rather the opinion of how our ETLs/STLs appear to the rest of their team at times.
Now, as far as the opinion I was expressing, it was about the subjective part of the wording in the federal laws that you cited. Like I said, 10-15% of their time would fall outside the "The employee’s primary duty must be managing the enterprise, or managing a customarily recognized department or subdivision of the enterprise" clause. My point is still valid and stands. I recognize your position on it's potential for abuse and in no way would I ever condone ETLs/STLs being used as extra labor that a TM should be doing(or conversely and have TMs work off the clock for free hours like an ETL/STL).
Now I've cleared my feelings on things and explained where I was coming from hopefully more clearly. For the sake of diffusing a more heated debate, I am removing myself from further discussion on this thread. Everyone else please continue if you wish, things have been civil and adult so far, just please be mindful of others.
Thank you.
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/
Noun:
1) A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
2)The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I can have an opinion on any damn thing I please. So can you. In fact, you can have the opinion that my opinion is wrong, and I will defend your right to view it as such, but don't try to deny me my opinion outright. We are not discussing the explicit facts of federal labor laws in the context of this thread(and if we were, I freely admit that you seem to be well versed on this subject), but rather the opinion of how our ETLs/STLs appear to the rest of their team at times.
Now, as far as the opinion I was expressing, it was about the subjective part of the wording in the federal laws that you cited. Like I said, 10-15% of their time would fall outside the "The employee’s primary duty must be managing the enterprise, or managing a customarily recognized department or subdivision of the enterprise" clause. My point is still valid and stands. I recognize your position on it's potential for abuse and in no way would I ever condone ETLs/STLs being used as extra labor that a TM should be doing(or conversely and have TMs work off the clock for free hours like an ETL/STL).
Now I've cleared my feelings on things and explained where I was coming from hopefully more clearly. For the sake of diffusing a more heated debate, I am removing myself from further discussion on this thread. Everyone else please continue if you wish, things have been civil and adult so far, just please be mindful of others.
Thank you.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
Thanks for the explanation. I was just a little frustrated because so many people are being deliberately hard headed because they clearly didn't know what the law said and are hitting me with all kinds of random hypothetical situations that would never happen in real life. Thanks for being one of the rational people.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
<sigh>
Again, directly from the department of labor, in order to be salaried exempt you must:
"The employee’s primary duty must be managing the enterprise, or managing a customarily recognized department or subdivision of the enterprise;
The employee must customarily and regularly direct the work of at least two or more other full-time employees or their equivalent; and
The employee must have the authority to hire or fire other employees, or the employee’s suggestions and recommendations as to the hiring, firing, advancement, promotion or any other change of status of other employees must be given particular weight."
I don't believe for a second that your ETL gave you the authority to hire and fire people. 🙂 I also don't believe for a second your ETL put you in charge of all of the sales floor, assets protection, HR, or any other department an ETL is in charge of. So because you are not empowered to do all of these things, then no, you are not doing your ETLs job. 🙂 At least not the part that makes him salaried and you hourly.
Ever wondered why a Sr TL doesn't have the authority to hire/fire someone and must have an ETL approve? Ever wonder why Sr TLs are in charge of the same areas regular TLs are instead of large parts of the store like an ETL? Because they are HOURLY employees. These are the job duties that determine if an employee is salary or hourly.
Just because your ETL might sweep the floor, and then tell you to sweep the floor, doesn't mean you are "doing the work" of a salaried employee. 🙂
P.S. On the off chance your ETL actually was stupid enough to give an hourly TM the authority to hire/fire someone - call integrity. He'll be termed within 24 hours.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2011
- Messages
- 84
StateofTarget,
I appreciate your opinion but I hardly think I am being deliberately hard-headed. Especially not when the LODs in my store won't even answer the LOD calls. I understand what you are trying to say but I can promise you that after many years of working with the Big Red Machine, I know exactly what they should and should not be doing.
Sitting on their butt in TSC facebooking is not one of them. Neither is playing dress-up in RTW.
My STL said we shouldn't need and exec to do anything for us. If that is truly the case, then we don't need execs at all. It's my opinion that if we have so many execs they are running out of things to do, then maybe they need to make a better use of that payroll.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
The problem is that there is a difference between not doing their work as managers and not doing the work of hourly employees. If they are not even taking LOD calls then you are right they are not doing their job as managers.
However, when your STL says you shouldn't need an exec to do anything for you he *probably* means any of your hourly work. I can't imagine he would mean, for example, that you shouldn't need an ETL to get you locked equipment, or to let you in the store after hours.
The fact is that your ETLs probably are sometimes running out of things to do, and they are killing time with facebook or some other thing. Remember, though, that ETLs are not allowed a guaranteed lunch or breaks like hourly TMs. Part of the "benefit" of being salary is discretion to take time to do personal things when you decide you have the time. Also, part of the "benefit" of being salary is the ability to get your work done at your own pace. So if you finish all of your work in 5 hours, then technically the other hours you are at work are yours to do with as you see fit. The flip side of that is that if you are at work for 10 hours and still don't have your required work done, then guess what? You are staying until it is done and are not getting any extra pay even if you have to be there for 16 hours straight with no lunch/breaks.
I think the problem is that a lot of TMs are simply not aware of the benefits/detriments of being hourly/salary are. I have done a lot of reading about salary and hourly employees. Pretty much in any industry (IT, manufacturing, retail, medical, law, etc) it is an understood "benefit" of being salary that you get to use your time however you want as long as you get your work done. So if your ETLs are honestly getting all of their work done to the satisfaction of the STL/DTL then they are technically allowed to play on facebook or look at clothes in RTW if that is what they choose to spend their time on as long as they are still in the building to handle management issues as they arise.
Now, if they are doing things such as refusing to get equipment for TMs, refusing to get keys for TMs, refusing to handle the baler/compactor, or other management duties, then yes - they are not doing their job. But if they are refusing to stock shelves, cashier, zone, etc.... well, they aren't supposed to even be doing those things to begin with and that is not an issue.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2011
- Messages
- 84
I get what you are saying. However in our case it is usually one of our Senior TLs that open or close the store. Rarely is there an exec there after 6 or 7 pm. They don't help with the compactor/baler. They cop an attitude about opening the CO. It's pretty bad when we have execs from other stores visit and ask just what in the heck the execs in this store are doing sitting in TSC all the time and they stop to help the team, while our exes are having a makeshift frat party in the LPC room.
And getting to your point of "that's not their job", well, regardless of what the code says it is still poor management. If a manager is not willing to get their hands dirty they should not be a manager. That is basic management 101. Perhaps this is just an issue I have with Target? Hard to say since I have been in most every position from being a entry level employee to a business owner. I will never agree to a method of business where the managers are prohibited from helping with the tasks.
And getting to your point of "that's not their job", well, regardless of what the code says it is still poor management. If a manager is not willing to get their hands dirty they should not be a manager. That is basic management 101. Perhaps this is just an issue I have with Target? Hard to say since I have been in most every position from being a entry level employee to a business owner. I will never agree to a method of business where the managers are prohibited from helping with the tasks.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2011
- Messages
- 778
Yeah that's good and all but i'm going to have to repeat what somebody said on the previous page. THERE ARE FEDERAL LAWS IN PLACE THAT PREVENT ETL'S FROM DOING WHATEVER THEY WANT.
If say Etl Bob gets tired of screwing around on facebook up at TSC on his ipod, and decides to go do hourly work the feds CAN and WILL get involved! :music2: lol jk but seriously tho!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2011
- Messages
- 34
I'm sorry but where does it state they cannot do the work of a TM? I see a lot of it is saying what determines their status but nowhere do I see it saying that they cannot perform the job functions of the employees underneath them.
Also I would like to know what it specifically says in the etl handbook regarding this issue. Also if possible would any current or previous ETLs like to confirm or deny any of this?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
It clearly says that they must spend the majority of their time doing management work. While that doesn't preclude doing *some* TM work, it means they are strongly limited in the amount they can do. So helping out with flow for an hour or two? No problem. Doing it every day 4+ hours a day - big problem.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2012
- Messages
- 636
It is true that it is federal law. A big box retailer i used to work for is being sued by a former salaried employee because they spent the majority of their time doing an hourly persons job instead of managerial tasks. Suing for lots and lots of overtime!
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
Lol I just don't understand how anyone on here is even arguing this point. I linked directly to the deparment of labor with a .gov address that says this is federal law. You know, half the people doubting this say ETLs are stupid, but it looks like that can run both ways....
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2011
- Messages
- 778
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2011
- Messages
- 34
Where does it clearly say it? I want to see where it says if you are exempt you are not allowed to do labor that is for team members. I read what you linked to with a fine tooth comb and no where does it dictate the type of work an exempt employee is prohibited from doing. It dictates the type of responsibilities to define the exempt status but nowhere should it be assumed that the lack of definition of type and duration of work means the exempt individual is not allowed to perform that function.
I swear people link something on the internet and they take it as scripture but the funny thing is people translate it however they see fit.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 825
Can you show me where I said they are not allowed to do ANY TM work? I never said that.
The issue here is the degree of work performed.
The department of labor site says this "The employee’s primary duty must be managing the enterprise, or managing a customarily recognized department or subdivision of the enterprise;"
See the word "PRIMARY"? That means the majority of the time must be dedicated to management work. If an ETL is spending most of his day doing the zone, for example, then management isn't his primary duty, is it?
Salaried exempt employees can perform SOME TM work, but their primary duty must be managing.
Here is an article that actually explains what the word "PRIMARY" means for exempt employees. (I think it is pretty sad the word "primary" needs to be explained to you, but whatever)
http://www.hrhub.com/doc.mvc/How-Much-Nonexempt-Work-Can-an-Exempt-Employe-0001
"The Executive Exemption. Both the long and short tests for the executive exemption provide, among other things, that an employee's primary duty must involve managing the employing entity or a department thereof, and must include directing the work of two or more full-time employees. Under the long test only, a worker must spend no more than 20 percent of working time in nonexempt work—that is, in "activities which are not directly and closely related to the performance" of managerial work (29 C.F.R. §§541.1, 541.119). DOL regulations provide that the limitation on nonexempt work is 40 percent for employees working in retail or service establishments (29 C.F.R. §541.1(e))."
Read that? EXECUTIVE exemption (i.e. EXECUTIVE team leader) means that no more than 40% of their time can be spent doing non-exempt (in this case, TM work) in retail establishments.
If you read what I wrote before, I clearly stated it isn't a big deal if an ETL spends two hours every now and then helping out TMs, but if they are spending 4+ hours a day then it is a huge issue because they are clearly no longer making management their primary job and are clearly spending more time than legally allowed doing hourly work.
Target actually directs ETLs in their handbook to spend no more than 20% of their time doing hourly work at the absolute most. (yes, my STL actually told me this before) The reason is Target doesn't even want to take the chance of ETLs going over, just like they don't even want to take the chance of TMs waiting to the last minute to take their lunch in time. Also, some states have even more strict requirements than federal law (similiar to how some states have stricter lunch requirements for hourly employees) and restrict exempt employees to even less time, and in those states ETLs are even more limited in the amount of time they spend doing hourly work. So someone on this site (just a hypothetical) working at a store in Connecticut might see his/her ETLs hardly do anything because that state may limit their time to 10% doing hourly work, but a TM in Texas might see ETLs frequently doing hourly work because they can take the full 40%.
Last edited:
- Status