Discrimination

[slowhands]

Men are physically larger stronger than women. It’s not sexist to ask them to carry a 100 pound tv stand to a guests car over a woman.

Actually, that is sexist. Women can do the same work as men. We are all equals right? Or are you saying men are superior to women?

 

[happygoth]

Actually, that is sexist. Women can do the same work as men. We are all equals right? Or are you saying men are superior to women?

Most men are physically stronger than most women. There are exceptions, obviously, but this is a natural physiological difference and a scientific fact. Men have more muscle mass and strength in their upper bodies than women.

 

[dannyy315]

Actually, that is sexist. Women can do the same work as men. We are all equals right? Or are you saying men are superior to women?

If women want to heavy lifting, no one is stopping them. But men usually volunteer because it’s the courteous thing to do.

Even when we’re talking about the strongest people on the planet, men lift significant more weight than women


Here’s a peer reviewed study on strength difference between men and women

Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics - PubMed

Strength and muscle characteristics were examined in biceps brachii and vastus lateralis of eight men and eight women. Measurements included motor unit number, size and activation and voluntary strength of the elbow flexors and knee extensors. Fiber areas and type were determined from needle...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively. The men were also stronger relative to lean body mass.

 

[seasonaldude]

I'd like to preface this comment by stating that as with all things race and gender in the US, it's complicated. But, yes, I do think that at my store there is some discrimination against straight white males. I'll get back to that though. There is much more discrimination against minorities when they are new. Minority seasonals are much more likely to be labeled lazy and not kept. They, unfortunately, have to overcome stereotypes to stay employed. That flips when it comes to opportunities for development and leadership. If someone overcomes the initial stereotypes, the more diversity boxes they "check" the greater the sense of urgency to give them opportunities if they show any potential at all.

Discrimination that is pervasive at my store cuts both ways. That's the stereotyping of position by gender and sexuality. Putting a straight male in style is laughed at by leadership, for example. Right now, TMs from all over the store are being given style hours whether they want them or not, but only female TMs. That's discriminatory against the men who might want to pick up the hours, but also against the women who would rather not.

It goes beyond style, however. People can initially get hired outside the stereotypes, but if they're kept they'll be moved. It's amazing how every male front of store TM is "a bad cashier" and gets moved to drive-ups or carts. TMs without two X chromosomes are obviously not capable of running the service desk and if they are interested it's because they're lazy. On the other hand, a female hired for tech should know that she'll be moved to style or beauty within a month. Tech requires someone with a Y chromosome under the age of 30. It is known. Even in GM, DBO areas are handed out along gender lines.

I don't believe any of the above is conscious. As I wrote above, it's complicated. Society in general has not completely overcome gender stereotypes. We aren't always aware of that until we take a step back and think it through. It's something I've thought about a lot recently as an older, straight white male. I'm technically "under development." However, for reasons I don't want to get into I really need to move to a different work center and I feel the development is somewhat an effort to keep me where I am for now. And that even if I am eventually allowed to change workcenters, my options would be very limited. It's unfortunate. I like working at Target. I actually like GUEST. Helping guests makes my day (and theirs). It's a win win. But, I'm looking to move on.

 

[Fluttervale]

None of the

I'd like to preface this comment by stating that as with all things race and gender in the US, it's complicated. But, yes, I do think that at my store there is some discrimination against straight white males. I'll get back to that though. There is much more discrimination against minorities when they are new. Minority seasonals are much more likely to be labeled lazy and not kept. They, unfortunately, have to overcome stereotypes to stay employed. That flips when it comes to opportunities for development and leadership. If someone overcomes the initial stereotypes, the more diversity boxes they "check" the greater the sense of urgency to give them opportunities if they show any potential at all.

Discrimination that is pervasive at my store cuts both ways. That's the stereotyping of position by gender and sexuality. Putting a straight male in style is laughed at by leadership, for example. Right now, TMs from all over the store are being given style hours whether they want them or not, but only female TMs. That's discriminatory against the men who might want to pick up the hours, but also against the women who would rather not.

It goes beyond style, however. People can initially get hired outside the stereotypes, but if they're kept they'll be moved. It's amazing how every male front of store TM is "a bad cashier" and gets moved to drive-ups or carts. TMs without two X chromosomes are obviously not capable of running the service desk and if they are interested it's because they're lazy. On the other hand, a female hired for tech should know that she'll be moved to style or beauty within a month. Tech requires someone with a Y chromosome under the age of 30. It is known. Even in GM, DBO areas are handed out along gender lines.

I don't believe any of the above is conscious. As I wrote above, it's complicated. Society in general has not completely overcome gender stereotypes. We aren't always aware of that until we take a step back and think it through. It's something I've thought about a lot recently as an older, straight white male. I'm technically "under development." However, for reasons I don't want to get into I really need to move to a different work center and I feel the development is somewhat an effort to keep me where I am for now. And that even if I am eventually allowed to change workcenters, my options would be very limited. It's unfortunate. I like working at Target. I actually like GUEST. Helping guests makes my day (and theirs). It's a win win. But, I'm looking to move on.

None of those examples apply at our store, but we are in a very liberal area. It would be interesting to know if your city is in a more progressive or conservative area. The only times I don’t have older women do heavy lifting is if I know they’ve already been out for hurting themselves doing the thing.

edit: which I would also excuse if anyone on my team had hurt themselves, just so far it’s only been older women.

 

[seasonaldude]

None of the

None of those examples apply at our store, but we are in a very liberal area. It would be interesting to know if your city is in a more progressive or conservative area. The only times I don’t have older women do heavy lifting is if I know they’ve already been out for hurting themselves doing the thing.

edit: which I would also excuse if anyone on my team had hurt themselves, just so far it’s only been older women.

I'm in a moderately liberal town in a red state. Overall, it's a conservative area. Most TMs and leadership at my store identify as liberal though.

 

[happygoth]

My store is very diverse. We've had men in Style and Beauty, we've had women in Tech. One of our best Guest Service TMs is male.

 

[60SecondsRemaining]

This entire thread is lol.

 

[ION the Prize]

I work the chemical aisles a lot and they're right next to the beauty aisles. Just specific to that, I kinda wish there was a little more sexism in the world. I hate being stopped by customers shopping the beauty aisles.

Sorry, but you're gonna have to help me out here. Why should I care that there's a difference between a shimmer shade and a metallic shade?

 

[NKG]

I have an entire file drawer of incidents over the years... I learned some things in journalism school.

There is people in this company that get harassed for being- female, by the color of their skin (spoiler they aren't white) Religion, Medical, sexual preference and yes age. Those people don't say anything or if they do its looked the other way. Your claims of being harassed because your white mean nothing to me. Basically do you want a cookie? Now as an elder on the other hand like how are they harassing you? Are they making you do light tasks, working you part time, tell you to work faster??

 

[NotCynicalYet]

Your claims of being harassed because your white mean nothing to me. Basically do you want a cookie?

WTF?

That's a bit counterproductive, don't you think?

 

[Rarejem]

It seems rather unfair to dismiss the sense of discrimination felt by the OP because he is a white male. Not knowing the diversity ratio at that store, he may very well be in a minority situation at his store. Discrimination occurs when an employer treats members of certain classes unfairly because of their memberships in those groups or their protected characteristics. One does not have to be a minority to be discriminated against. If that unfair treatment is directed at only one specific person, it then becomes harassment. (And if neither is the case, then the OP may just want to whine and doesn't know the right words, though a case filed with the EEOC - unknown if the case is accepted - seems to indicate that this may be serious.)

 

[NKG]

WTF?

That's a bit counterproductive, don't you think?

No

 

[Captain Orca]

"We need a strong guy up front please to help with a pick up, Thanks!" Snowflakes hate that shit.

 

[NotCynicalYet]

No

Beyond the obvious thing where SWMs have clearly faced the least discrimination historically, how do you justify that?

 

[commiecorvus]

Beyond the obvious thing where SWMs have clearly faced the least discrimination historically, how do you justify that?

@NKG clearly out-cynicaled you.
And not to put words in their mouth, but you pretty much answered your own question.

 

[happygoth]

I'm just curious if any other older straight white males feel discriminated against at their store? I know I certainly am having just filed a charged with the EEOC against my SD. Target preaches inclusivity, and I'm just curious if Corporate is totally oblivious to the the truth or is this something that just happens at my location... constantly?

I believe age discrimination protection begins at 40. White males are becoming an endangered species at Target, particularly in leadership roles. It's becoming very obvious.

Wasn't it a couple of years ago they made a commitment to be a certain percentage of minorities by a certain time company wide? Well, how do you think they'll get there...

WTF?

That's a bit counterproductive, don't you think?

It seems rather unfair to dismiss the sense of discrimination felt by the OP because he is a white male. Not knowing the diversity ratio at that store, he may very well be in a minority situation at his store. Discrimination occurs when an employer treats members of certain classes unfairly because of their memberships in those groups or their protected characteristics. One does not have to be a minority to be discriminated against. If that unfair treatment is directed at only one specific person, it then becomes harassment. (And if neither is the case, then the OP may just want to whine and doesn't know the right words, though a case filed with the EEOC - unknown if the case is accepted - seems to indicate that this may be serious.)

Look at the history of racism, discrimination, subjugation and prejudice in this country - drill down into who was making the laws, who was in charge of hiring practices, who was doing the sexual harassing, the bullying, who was perpetrating the violence against what have come to be known as protected classes. For centuries.

Then cry me a river.

 

[Rarejem]

Look at the history of racism, discrimination, subjugation and prejudice in this country - drill down into who was making the laws, who was in charge of hiring practices, who was doing the sexual harassing, the bullying, who was perpetrating the violence against what have come to be known as protected classes. For centuries.

Then cry me a river.

Well aware of the history. That doesn't mean it's ok at any level. Ever.

 

[ION the Prize]

Just to bring in an outside source, this is a link to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission page “Race/Color Discrimination” which includes such interesting tidbits as:

“Discrimination can occur when the victim and the person who inflicted the discrimination are the same race or color …”

Race/Color Discrimination

(Will this settle any arguments? No it will not.)

 

[NKG]

Look at the history of racism, discrimination, subjugation and prejudice in this country - drill down into who was making the laws, who was in charge of hiring practices, who was doing the sexual harassing, the bullying, who was perpetrating the violence against what have come to be known as protected classes. For centuries.

Then cry me a river.

 

[ManMythMachine]

This entire thread is lol.

Life & work is a blend. I did an interview for ICQA and ended up scoring a backup role. Honestly it's for the best because I would be bored as hell doing freaking dock audits and hold reports all day. People who do the interviews have people in mind already and you can claim aggrieved status all you want but most times unless it's openly blatantly about your sex, gender or race, you'll never know. I just assume they wanted somebody else and then figure I'm better off than if I forced myself into the position and then it totally sucked anyways. Like Henry Jones Sr told his son Indiana Jones, when pulling him back from the brink of trying to grasp the golden chalice beyond his reach, "Let it go."

 

[NKG]

@NKG clearly out-cynicaled you.
And not to put words in their mouth, but you pretty much answered your own question.

Yesss and I did it with manners 😆

 

[60SecondsRemaining]

Does everyone view discrimination as black and white?

Discrimination in all it's many forms, never comes in "it is" or "it isn't"

Intent plays a huge part.

If I ask a guy to get carts because I don't want to send the 80lb female cashier, is that sexist? Am I doing it because I don't believe the female can do it or am I doing it because I believe it will be easier for Andre-the-giant-looking Steve from the flow team to do it? Can an action be inherently sexist or discriminatory if it's done in good faith? I say generally no, but then we get into microaggressions and things like unconscious bias.

A little advice from someone who has been down this road and can share some lessons learned. Spend your time and energy on actions that make your situation better.

Do you think someone is truly discriminating against you? The first question you should ask is "What is the reality?" Are they actually being consciously discriminatory or is there a miscommunication there. The second question you should ask is "Do I care? The third question you should ask is "Why do I care?" And then, if you really feel strongly about it then you just need to stand the fuck up for yourself. Sorry not sorry. People are so inherently conflict-averse and validation-seeking it's insane.

People arguing over bias and discrimination on an internet forum isn't going to change anything. Challenge them. Challenge them until they acknowledge it. Do it respectfully, but don't accept a bullshit answer, ask why continuously to the point of absurdity until it's abundantly clear they're acting that way. People will not change until you challenge them, challenge their bias. Someone needs to make them see. By doing this you make the workplace better for yourself and everyone else around you.

 

[happygoth]

Well aware of the history. That doesn't mean it's ok at any level. Ever.

 

[NotCynicalYet]

@NKG clearly out-cynicaled you.
And not to put words in their mouth, but you pretty much answered your own question.

So...dunking on white dudes? It's begging for a racist (over)reaction. That's why it's counterproductive. That isn't the way to confront racism, it's the way to start a fight.