The people that write studies like that are academics. Since they are not out in the industry, their opinions do not necessarily match the opinions of the industry (ie the people that matter). In virtually every study of salary data business majors will be found to make more than any of the majors you identified. However, engineers typically make more than business majors.
Archived No college degree Team Leaders.
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The people that write studies like that are academics. Since they are not out in the industry, their opinions do not necessarily match the opinions of the industry (ie the people that matter). In virtually every study of salary data business majors will be found to make more than any of the majors you identified. However, engineers typically make more than business majors.
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You are right, people with business degrees are much more likely to hire people who have business degrees.
Sad to say, the starting pay for an ETL is higher in most states then for a starting teacher but which is more important?
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Hey StateofTarget with the tuition reimbursement its all about how you word it, I have gotten my accounting/biology covered.
mrknownothing
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My sister is finishing her psychology degree just so she can get a job as an ETL.
My store is doing this. We have a Food Ave TL who's been with the company for 25 years. She's being asked to step down or find another job. Of course, my STL is an *********************...
Called in about half the team lead team, and said "You have until after Christmas to either step down or find another job. You can go back to school, but you will have to step down. A team lead position may be offered when you complete your degree."
I dislike my STL. It's funny though, since when we were all brought in, him and our ETL-HR who hahaha DOESN'T have a degree and can barely make a grammatically correct sentence sat there and told us this. It's nice.
Love Target.
I'm sure other stores have handled this with more grace, but mine doesn't even know the meaning of the word.
Called in about half the team lead team, and said "You have until after Christmas to either step down or find another job. You can go back to school, but you will have to step down. A team lead position may be offered when you complete your degree."
I dislike my STL. It's funny though, since when we were all brought in, him and our ETL-HR who hahaha DOESN'T have a degree and can barely make a grammatically correct sentence sat there and told us this. It's nice.
Love Target.
I'm sure other stores have handled this with more grace, but mine doesn't even know the meaning of the word.
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Just that the course work is marginally challenging at best, and that its usually common sense type stuff. And unless you are majoring in business with the intent of running your own business, you don't really take a lot from it. I'm going off what my wife told me about classes she would take either with business majors or the actuall business classes themselves.
I am one of those 50 year olds. I didn't finish college, have 4 teenagers 2 in college and 2 to go. I could not afford nor have the inclination to go back at this time in my life. Too tired from work, kids and housework. I have trained in too many ETL's fresh out of colege that didn't know how to write a review or speak to and motivate a team of various ages. The majority of their work ethic was non-existant. Why are they not truthful when they interview these kids at the college fairs and tell them they have to actually roll up their sleeves and work right by us because it is needed and will earn everyones respect. I have had some that thought they would spend most of their time in an office and be supervising not breaking a sweat by pushing a caf or making a bale. My last ETL only made it a few months.
I do understand Targets reasoning but it should not be a hard and fast rule that everyone needs college. Maybe they need to grandfather all the current team leads in instead of a demotion and have the newly hireds require college. Time will tell if this is Target wide or only certain states or districts with these new requirements.
I do understand Targets reasoning but it should not be a hard and fast rule that everyone needs college. Maybe they need to grandfather all the current team leads in instead of a demotion and have the newly hireds require college. Time will tell if this is Target wide or only certain states or districts with these new requirements.
Odds are they have no clue. While it is true that a Business Administration degree can be very basic, things like Finance, Accounting, Marketing, etc. are far from "easy". It also depends on the school in question... there's a big difference between the "degree factory" schools and a typical state school.
As to whomever it was that said they were going to be fired/demoted if they didn't have a degree... that stinks, it's dumb business IMO. However, I have over 100 college credit hours, will have my Bachelors in the spring, military background, etc., etc. and even if I didn't have any of that, I highly doubt they'd hire me as a TL just to fire/demote me in less than 4 months. Initial training time/cost, longer term training/mentoring, waiting for me to "get in to the groove", interview time/process... that's a ton of money, time, and effort just to demote. Who knows, but again, it just doesn't hold water for me.
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Target can do anything they want and get away with it and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. That's another reason I stepped down from a team lead in March. That and the three medications I was on because of the stress.
I have been much happier without the pressure of being a team lead. My replacement is seeing the reasons why I demoted. I told her just take a couple of sedatives and wash them down with some alcohol.
I was just wondering, why does target make it mandatory to have a college degree in order to be a ETL? I personally haven't been with target for long but I know of a few co workers who have. One being my TL who does a lot more than is required of him and yet he wouldn't be allowed to be an ETL just because he lacks a piece of paper saying he went to school for 4 more years. I don't want to offend the people who do go to college there are many of them who worked hard to get to college and get through it, but then there are also some who just went because they knew it would be a fun time. Now I'm currently in school and don't have a degree yet, but I work a lot harder than most of my co workers, and stay at work longer than a lot of the leaders I also try to learn as much as possible to improve my store,s scores in the areas I work. I understand target wanting to higher people who have an education as ETL, but not all college grads are as qualified for the job as hard working TLs or TMs who don't lack common sense and the yearning to do more. Why pass over a more experienced and dedicated worker just because they don't have a degree. That doesn't seem right and to me it makes target dumb. Wouldn't it be better to promote someone who knows how stores run and is also a dedicated hard worker. Why can't target have a screening process in order to pick out the bums from the hard working/ dedicated? I worked at target for a little over a year now as a flow team member and as soon as my 90 days were up I was crossed trained in two different area. One area was backroom received very little training but had enough common sense and problem solving to become a good reliable TM for that work center. The second work center was instocks and in less than a month I became the best instock TM the store has, and as of right now I alone am saving instocks which was made red for months because of holiday help/ horrible hires who didn't last for more than a month. Not to mention the fact that the other TMs were doing the training and could care less about it, and on top of that I'm the only on the back of the line for unloading the truck, I don't know about other stores but is only one person suppose to be on the back of the line? And after that I'm in charge of security/ electronics. Yet I do all of that and still I look for more to do. So tell me why I would be passed over for a TL position or higher TL position by someone who doesn't or can't even keep the spill stations filled until there is a major visit and even then they pass it on to a TL. It might bight target back in the ass if they keep hiring people who don't stand as a good role model for their team members.
Thank you I agree with you 100% the college kids don't know about physical labor. I'm 21 now and since I was practically raised by my WWII vet grandpa I know what hard labor is. Honestly some of these fresh out of college kids I know are less intelligent than me because I just recently had to show the AP ETL how to use the magnet portion of the electronics key. When they trained me in electronics I didn't even need them to show me I already knew how it worked. Also why does target think that hiring people with a 4 year degree is a good idea most people with a 4 year degree are not looking for a job at target and if they do it would only be until they find a better job that suits their major.
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I think a lot of people are making the mistake of failing to realize that there are different *types* of intelligence. There is emotional intelligence, mechanical intelligence, book smarts, etc.
Ever hear of a mechanical aptitude test? They usually give it to plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. The fact is - some people are better with their hands and with spatial perception than others.
At the same time, some people are better at books smarts than other people.
Furthermore, some people have better emotional intelligence. (in other words, they can relate well to just about anyone and know how to adapt their behavior accordingly)
Just because someone excels in one type of intelligence and sucks at others doesn't mean they are an idiot.... just that they are better at one way of thinking than another.
The fact is, you probably would score really well on a mechanical aptitude test. (being able to figure out the electronics key while your ETL couldn't, for example)
At the same time, I am willing to bet if that ETL studied law in college (just an example) he could probably run circles around you writing/reading legal documents.
This doesn't mean than one person is smarter than the other, only that each has a different kind of intelligence.
The fact is, the higher you go up in management the more "book smart" you need to be. If you are a chief financial officer, for example, it doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't figure out how to use a nail and hammer.... but you damn well better be able to calculate and understand massively complex financial transactions that span multiple nations in the billions of dollars. At the same time, that chief financial officer would probably be fired on day one if he got a job as a carpenter. Likewise, that carpenter would probably be fired on day one if he was in an accounting job.
So, I can understand the Target logic on requiring a college education.... because in theory you are getting people who are "book smart", which is the type of smarts you need higher up in management.
The problem is, Target seems to be recruiting the very bottom of the barrel "book smart" people.... the ones who were lucky to pull any grade higher than a C in college, partied all day, and barely made it through at University of Phoenix or Everest.
Think about it.... most ETLs (dare I say all ETL's) did not attend Harvard, Yale, or even top tier state schools. Even the ones who did attend better schools likely were at the bottom of the class ranking. Certainly they were not graduating with high honors or anything of that nature.
That's the problem with Target and ETLs... they simply can't get the top end of college grads to work retail. The ones from great schools with great grades are leaving school with much better jobs... meaning Target has to settle for the worst ones.
sigma7
Former ETL-All the Things
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I agree with with SoT. Retail is never going to recruit the best and brightest college grads for store management simply because it's retail. I'm sure HQ has a lot of bright minds working there...stores just can't attract that kind of talent. Then stores pay really well to retain talent, but they rarely get great talent in the first place, so then they're stuck with ETLs and STLs (and dare I say some DTLs) that perform just good enough to not get fired. Then those execs are hesitant to quit because they know they'd have a hard time landing a job that pays as well as Target. This is definitely not the case for all execs. There are some who are great; but, by and large I feel comfortable saying that a large percentage of store management has no business being retail managers.
This is another example of why Target is run by idiots. A Team Leader position should not have prerequisites of having a college degree. They don't pay people what someone with a college degree should be earning, the jobs don't require any education that you'd get past the high school level, and as most know that have worked for Target, there is very little promotion from within. Target is a stupid, stupid company.
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Two other problems would come with hiring the smart people.
It would be hard to get them to put up with the BS practices and ridiculous pressure to perform.
Smart people would just go find somewhere else or figure out a better, less painful way to handle things.
And while you might find sociopaths in a group of smart people, most of them know that you can't treat the people under you like cattle and expect results.
It would be hard to get them to put up with the BS practices and ridiculous pressure to perform.
Smart people would just go find somewhere else or figure out a better, less painful way to handle things.
And while you might find sociopaths in a group of smart people, most of them know that you can't treat the people under you like cattle and expect results.
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Reading some of the recent posts in this thread, I see why you were overlooked for promotion.
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sher
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I don't think it really matters that Target doesn't pay "what someone with a degree should be earning" since there's such a high un/under-employment rate for more recent college grads. No one's making what they thought they would when they decided to go to college. I'd also assume getting a job with Target is less competitive than a lot of other entry level positions out there. Also, I think some people look for jobs that are "beneath them" because they think they have the gusto to move up higher, or they need some (leadership) experience to put on their resume.
I still think it makes more sense to promote from within if there's someone who's capable and willing to do the job than it does to hire someone from outside, though. My store seems to promote from within pretty often.
I still think it makes more sense to promote from within if there's someone who's capable and willing to do the job than it does to hire someone from outside, though. My store seems to promote from within pretty often.
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we promote from within a lot at my store. sometimes its a good idea sometimes not.. reading through this thread seems like every store is kind of in the same boat with brand new fresh out of college ETL's that come in and realize its not as easy as it sounds and end up leaving. We have been through countless at my store. I am a TL without a degree but I am actually taking college course now online so I can get away from target. I dont want to be an ETL i have a really bad feeling about the direction the company is going. When I first started I felt like they valued their team and actually cared about them but now it feels ust like some big corporate blah get everything done with no help and no hours or we will coach you out.
Before I left Target I was the only TL with a degree. Everyone else who got one or was working on getting one were doing so to get the hell out of Target. I think it is the same for a lot of those fresh out of college ETLs as well. They take the job to have something while they look for something better. Target no longer does anything to gain the loyalty of its employees so it is a never ending revolving door at every position. Of course if your not planning on staying you do not really care about anything beyond just keeping your job and that is why everybody is cheating to get green scores and nobody cares about the long term damage they are doing.
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Alright, well...I'm late to join in, didn't really read all the posts all thoroughly and carefully as I could have, AND I've been hanging out with the yellow-tailed kangaroo for a bit, so here goes...
FWIW, there seems to be a huge trend at my store to hire/promote ONLY leadership that is A.) Already in possession of a degree, OR B.) Has been with the company since they got their first animal cruelty violation for spray-painting a bullseye on a helpless dog, AND is working toward some flavor of business degree...
Do I think this is ultimately the way to go for all store leadership? No.
Do I think that basic spelling, grammar, punctuation, a little history, geography, etc., are helpful? Maybe even speaking a few languages other than english? YES. Math? YES. ( Mostly so you can help me, because me+math=Uh-ohs... )
Do all college graduates possess these abilities, and if they do, do they regularly demonstrate them? IMHO...NO.
Do I think that things like critical thinking, creativity, etc., are being not only grossly neglected in our schools but also selected out of our workplaces? Hmmmm...
Sincerely,
A Straight Shooter With Upper-management Written All Over Her...Unless they Find Out About my Good Enuf Diploma 😉
FWIW, there seems to be a huge trend at my store to hire/promote ONLY leadership that is A.) Already in possession of a degree, OR B.) Has been with the company since they got their first animal cruelty violation for spray-painting a bullseye on a helpless dog, AND is working toward some flavor of business degree...
Do I think this is ultimately the way to go for all store leadership? No.
Do I think that basic spelling, grammar, punctuation, a little history, geography, etc., are helpful? Maybe even speaking a few languages other than english? YES. Math? YES. ( Mostly so you can help me, because me+math=Uh-ohs... )
Do all college graduates possess these abilities, and if they do, do they regularly demonstrate them? IMHO...NO.
Do I think that things like critical thinking, creativity, etc., are being not only grossly neglected in our schools but also selected out of our workplaces? Hmmmm...
Sincerely,
A Straight Shooter With Upper-management Written All Over Her...Unless they Find Out About my Good Enuf Diploma 😉
mrknownothing
purveyor of things
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sigma7
Former ETL-All the Things
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Critical thinking and creativity aren't stressed nearly enough in our schools. Coming from a business major who recently switched to engineering, I'm challenged to really think and use problem solving skills in my current coursework than I ever was in my business classes. My business classes were almost all memorize and regurgitate, save for my accounting, finance, economics, and stats classes (which is probably why I was an accounting and economics major for a year). And even my econ classes aimed to get you you to understand major concepts rather than really think about anything. Maybe it's just the nature of science and math classes, but I am definitely challenged and required to critically think and figure out ways to solve problems.
Now I'm not saying that all engineering, science, or math majors have the best critical thinking skills and would make great managers. Nor am I saying that all business majors lack critical thinking skills and the ability to manage. I will say that I felt like most of my classes that fell under the school of business within the college of business (strictly classes with BUS prefix) all seemed to teach the same material and required reading and a few papers...not much else. I don't feel like I gained any valuable skills pursuing a business degree, whereas with my engineering coursework I've had to become better at problem solving, will have valuable specialized knowledge when I graduate, and have numerous opportunities to work on and lead teams collaborating on research or special projects.
Now I'm not saying that all engineering, science, or math majors have the best critical thinking skills and would make great managers. Nor am I saying that all business majors lack critical thinking skills and the ability to manage. I will say that I felt like most of my classes that fell under the school of business within the college of business (strictly classes with BUS prefix) all seemed to teach the same material and required reading and a few papers...not much else. I don't feel like I gained any valuable skills pursuing a business degree, whereas with my engineering coursework I've had to become better at problem solving, will have valuable specialized knowledge when I graduate, and have numerous opportunities to work on and lead teams collaborating on research or special projects.
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