Archived Prospective ETL, questions about religious accommodations and grooming.
- Thread starter ETLfonhom
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I can understand them wanting to research it further but it was rude to not complete the interview.
Perhaps they were afraid that by completing the interview that would put them in some kind of legal position while this way they have no real obligation to you?
Like redeye I really hope they get back to you and are honest about their efforts to be a diverse work place.
Perhaps they were afraid that by completing the interview that would put them in some kind of legal position while this way they have no real obligation to you?
Like redeye I really hope they get back to you and are honest about their efforts to be a diverse work place.
Update:
The recruiter called me today to inform me that Target was unwilling to provide reasonable accommodation for religious services on Fridays. 24/7 availability is a core role of an ETL, and due to this, Target will not be continuing the interview process.
Thoughts?
The recruiter called me today to inform me that Target was unwilling to provide reasonable accommodation for religious services on Fridays. 24/7 availability is a core role of an ETL, and due to this, Target will not be continuing the interview process.
Thoughts?
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Holy crap. I would try going up the chain, because that sounds like complete and utter bull. There's no way that a company like Target would risk the huge discrimination law suit that can result for disqualifying someone due to their religious beliefs. I would say call the integrity Hotline, but I wouldn't know for someone trying to get hired.
And the 24/7 availability is BS, because one of the ETL's at the store I trained at was a devout Mormon and never worked Sundays.
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I'm amazed that they were willing to straight up willing to admit that was the reason they wouldn't consider you.
It seems like they would have at least gone to the trouble of mealy mouthing around to faking a reason for not hiring you like so many other companies.
Check the state laws about discrimination based on religion.
Some states are a little more strict than others.
Some say that the company has to allow for reasonable accommodations, while others don't.
Knowing Spot I am willing to bet they checked that out ahead of time and your state is one that doesn' have that rule but it's worth a shot.
I am debating forwarding the scenario and all evidence to a civil rights organization, but I'm not sure how far I'd be willing to go to expose injustice. I do feel obligated to make sure Target knows that this kind of stuff isn't OK, but I don't have time to go through the run around.
Trying to force my way through the interview process is the the kind of thing that would paint a target on my back and set me up for a miserable career if they did hire me. I could see myself getting the worst jobs in the worst stores with the worst hours as punishment for asserting my rights and embarrassing the higher ups who tried to prevent me from working in their district.
What's the point?
Trying to force my way through the interview process is the the kind of thing that would paint a target on my back and set me up for a miserable career if they did hire me. I could see myself getting the worst jobs in the worst stores with the worst hours as punishment for asserting my rights and embarrassing the higher ups who tried to prevent me from working in their district.
What's the point?
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It sure would be nice to see someone slap them upside the head with a big screw you but I can understand why it wouldn't be worth it to you.
Good luck whichever way you decide.
It wouldn't be justified if such an action was focused solely on punishing a corporate machine or enacting revenge. For me, the point would be to make sure that the next person who comes along, whether they be Muslim, Jewish, or whatever else gets a fair chance to work for the company as an ETL without having to compromise their religion.
I wasn't asking for something unreasonable.
I've been internally debating about a reply to this. I say: tread carefully.
Yes, it sounds very tempting to go after a big company on the grounds you are stating. However, what proof do you have that this was said to you? Did you record said conversation? If you did, it is highly unlikely that a court would allow it to admitted as evidence in any court proceedings, meaning it would be your word against theirs. They also likely can afford to hire MUCH better lawyers.
Does it suck? YES. However, as a former ETL, I would be PISSED if one of my coworkers had this arrangement. Right now I spend most of my Sunday mornings, and many times Saturday nights, involved in my church. So, for religious reasons, I want all that time off. Oh, and I have vestry meetings once a month, as well as executive committee meetings and youth group time. I want all that off for religious reasons. Yes, this is taking it to extremes, but the point is: where do you draw the line?
The bottom line is that they expect open availability - and you don't provide that.
Yes, it sounds very tempting to go after a big company on the grounds you are stating. However, what proof do you have that this was said to you? Did you record said conversation? If you did, it is highly unlikely that a court would allow it to admitted as evidence in any court proceedings, meaning it would be your word against theirs. They also likely can afford to hire MUCH better lawyers.
Does it suck? YES. However, as a former ETL, I would be PISSED if one of my coworkers had this arrangement. Right now I spend most of my Sunday mornings, and many times Saturday nights, involved in my church. So, for religious reasons, I want all that time off. Oh, and I have vestry meetings once a month, as well as executive committee meetings and youth group time. I want all that off for religious reasons. Yes, this is taking it to extremes, but the point is: where do you draw the line?
The bottom line is that they expect open availability - and you don't provide that.
The recruiter left a voicemail... I can only assume he knew that he was being recorded.
I asked for 2-3 hours a week to duck out of work, drive to a mosque, pray, and return. As a Muslim, I cannot skip this once a week congregational prayer unless I am sick or traveling... It only happens at a specific time on Friday, so I can't be flexible with it.
I can perform all of my other religious duties without hindering anyone else and without any extra accommodations. I made this clear to the recruiter.
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I see a big diffrence in asking for a few hours every Friday to attened prayer and asking for all Saturday nights and Sunday off to do things at chruch.
Not that it isn't great your helping your chruch mind you. However a few moments on google explains Jumma is pretty much mandatory.
Not that it isn't great your helping your chruch mind you. However a few moments on google explains Jumma is pretty much mandatory.
Just in case someone in need of information ever stumbles on this thread:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 ("Title VII") prohibits employers, except religious organizations 3 4 5, from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment. Title VII also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon the employer. This means that:
Employers may not treat employees more or less favorably because of their religion.
Employees cannot be required to participate “or to refrain from participating “in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer.
Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees.
Employers may not retaliate against employees for asserting rights under Title VII.
-Anti Defamation League
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 ("Title VII") prohibits employers, except religious organizations 3 4 5, from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment. Title VII also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon the employer. This means that:
Employers may not treat employees more or less favorably because of their religion.
Employees cannot be required to participate “or to refrain from participating “in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer.
Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees.
Employers may not retaliate against employees for asserting rights under Title VII.
-Anti Defamation League
do you really think it could hurt my employability elsewhere? How exactly?
Mhugh220
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@ETLfonhom - does your current employment allow you to make it to prayer? I thought it would be hard for a teacher to get out during a school day, however I don't know your schedule and think it's cool if you can go.
@Signkitty - I didn't know ETLs got Friday off. Monday and Friday were mandatory for all ETLs in our district. Still doesn't mean an ETL couldn't leave for a few hours for their religious obligation. The store has full ETL coverage on Fridays. Very disappointing.
@bikebryan - that's a ridiculous comparison. He's asking for 3 hours a week. No Christian holidays off, no whole days off, just a few hours. I hear this complaint from many Christians but frankly, Christians aren't as disciplined as some religions. I didn't get Sunday mornings off but there is mass Saturday evening or late Sunday. And there is mass every day of the week. If I wanted 4 days off a week for mass I'd find a job at a church, not for a company that worships $$. Taking time off to attend mass is acceptable. But wanting off every single volunteer "religious" meeting is another issue. You getting mad over another ETLs religious obligation is absurd. There's always a choice - God or job. I admire the OPs dedication.
@ETLfonhom - I don't see how pursuing this would be harmful. It's a valid argument. Just depends on your state laws and how Target words their reason. If they have any Muslims on their side with open availability then that could be crushing. I fear you'll have a similar battle with other retailers unless they have a religious sympathizer on the recruiting team. Was your recruiter from MN or local? When I applied I spoke with a recruiter from MN then transferred to MD. Wonder if it was Corporate that shut this down or a local decision.
@Signkitty - I didn't know ETLs got Friday off. Monday and Friday were mandatory for all ETLs in our district. Still doesn't mean an ETL couldn't leave for a few hours for their religious obligation. The store has full ETL coverage on Fridays. Very disappointing.
@bikebryan - that's a ridiculous comparison. He's asking for 3 hours a week. No Christian holidays off, no whole days off, just a few hours. I hear this complaint from many Christians but frankly, Christians aren't as disciplined as some religions. I didn't get Sunday mornings off but there is mass Saturday evening or late Sunday. And there is mass every day of the week. If I wanted 4 days off a week for mass I'd find a job at a church, not for a company that worships $$. Taking time off to attend mass is acceptable. But wanting off every single volunteer "religious" meeting is another issue. You getting mad over another ETLs religious obligation is absurd. There's always a choice - God or job. I admire the OPs dedication.
@ETLfonhom - I don't see how pursuing this would be harmful. It's a valid argument. Just depends on your state laws and how Target words their reason. If they have any Muslims on their side with open availability then that could be crushing. I fear you'll have a similar battle with other retailers unless they have a religious sympathizer on the recruiting team. Was your recruiter from MN or local? When I applied I spoke with a recruiter from MN then transferred to MD. Wonder if it was Corporate that shut this down or a local decision.
I work a half day on Friday, it's convenient.
Mhugh220
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Random question: I had Muslim friends stationed with me while I was in the Air Force. They were never allowed to attend anything if it interfered with work. Same went for Christians, Jews, etc. Was this considered traveling? Is this a local obligation set by leaders or an obligation observed by all Muslims, or like most religions, people pick and chose what to follow?
Hopefully this isn't offensive for asking. I enjoy learning about different religions.
Hopefully this isn't offensive for asking. I enjoy learning about different religions.
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Some times people talk. Personally I would love to see you fight it, it seems very unfair that they can not accommodate you.
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I have a Muslim friend who works on Fridays & they take a break or 2 to pray. He asks a tl to be lod for a few minutes, especially at sunrise.
A kind reminder, we are talking an interview & not a signed employment contract.
A kind reminder, we are talking an interview & not a signed employment contract.
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It's an obligation for all Muslims... However attendance is not tracked or enforced by local leaders. As with all religions, some Muslims are not very religious... That being said, many non-religious Muslims still go out of their way to attend the Friday prayer.
I consider myself a practicing Muslim. I pray five times a day, fast during the month or Ramadan, avoid drinking alcohol, I dont eat pork, and the types of meat that I do eat have to be slaughtered a certain way.
In the Military, they allow Muslims to attend Friday prayer in congregation on base if they request it... That being said, there would have to be a group of muslims to pray with in the area... Therefore if someone was stationed in a place void of Muslims, and there were no other Muslims with him... Then that person can just pray the regular mid-day prayer wherever they are. Similarly, if there were several Muslims together they could establish the prayer wherever they were.
It's a bit complicated, but I hope you understand.
There's a distinction between the regular daily prayers and the Friday prayer. The regular daily prayers take about 5-7 minutes to complete, they have flexible times, and of course they can be performed alone. It doesn't take longer than a bathroom or cigarette break would take.
If your coworker prays regularly at work then I would assume that he is probably upset if he has to skip the Friday prayer and I feel really bad for him... He must be miserable.
Also, I understand that we are talking about an interview... I'd also like to note that I could have been dishonest and claimed open availability and then cried for religious accommodation later. It would have been shady, but I probably would have gotten what I wanted...
I feel that I am a strong candidate, and I do not think that I should be disqualified from the interview process because of my religion.
Can you imagine if employers could legally discriminate against African Americans in order to avoid having to deal with them after they were hired?
Target has clearly avoided hiring me because they do not want to adhere to laws designed to protect me. The responses that I am seeing on this forum lead me to believe that the amount of time that I requested off would not constitute any form of undue hardship for Target. Everything that I see points towards discriminatory hiring practices.
I worked in retail for years before teaching and getting time off to pray on Fridays has NEVER been an issue.
I have always been liked and well respected by my coworkers and management. I've even had managers who would kindly remind me to pray (at work) when I was working too hard and forgot.
I always volunteer to work on ALL the holidays and I don't mind working extra during that time... at walgreens I would typically end up closing on Christmas Eve and then coming back to open on Christmas morning because the most interesting part of my Christmas morning is a cup of coffee. Christian people with kids want to be at home on that day more than any other day of the year... And I have always been there to help someone have that.
Mhugh220
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@ETLfonhom - thank you for sharing! Your requested time off has zero hardship on Target. You could close every Friday which would benefit another ETL or give more of an ETL presence during a busy weekend night.
@Signkitty - good point. I agree ETLs would be glad to trade off less desirable shifts. I don't know why the recruiter thought this wasn't compatible with the ETL core role. They make exceptions for grad students. This request is no different than going to a class.
@Signkitty - good point. I agree ETLs would be glad to trade off less desirable shifts. I don't know why the recruiter thought this wasn't compatible with the ETL core role. They make exceptions for grad students. This request is no different than going to a class.
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I am so pissed. I am just a lowly TM, but I don't work Sunday mornings due to church. I worked with another TL who is a Muslim, and every Friday he ducked out for about 2 hours to make it to prayers. Sometimes it was a bit inconvenient, but certainly we made it work, and I thought it was great. The fact that they would have a problem with you ducking out for a few hours is absurd, in my opinion.
I would love to see you dump this on the ACLU or other such group, but I fully understand also just moving on. So much for diversity.
I would love to see you dump this on the ACLU or other such group, but I fully understand also just moving on. So much for diversity.
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