Archived Cleaning house of Team Leads

[Ludwig3]

A college degree, especially a Bachelors, is seen by employers (not just spot) as a sign of your ability to learn complex problems and dedicate yourself to a long term goal. It takes time, effort, dedication, and a certain amount of intelligence to get a Bachelors. None of that is to say it's a guarantee of success as a TL/ETL, or anything else down the road. Spot see's a college grad, even if not experienced in retail, as a great long term investment.

Spot might see it as a long term investment but if they're heart isn't into it, the position will start to fail and nothing will get done, compared to say someone who's worked there way into that position. (The case in my backroom) I just think it's a shady move by Spot. Not everyone can afford college, does that mean there lazy and not a long term investment, nope!

We had a great TL who worked for Spot for YEARS. New ETL came in and cleaned house and basically pushed her out, calling her "worthless". So we get a new TL carrying a Bachelors. Slowest member of our BR currently. He actually DIDN'T want to work for Target, but that's all that was hiring. Excellent logic we have here.

 

[Hardlinesmaster]

Why would anyone with a degree work for peanut pay? I did a survey with my other tl's today. Most of them don't have a degree, but lots of experience!

 

[redeye58]

Our TLs w/degrees are moving up to ETL...to OTHER STORES!

 

[RedDog]

A degree is prefered but that is it. We have been interviewing for TL and no degree is required nor does it appear to even be an issue. Anyone with a degree who is a Team Lead is just treading water waiting for better job and most Team Leads working on dergrees are doing so to get the out of Target. And I know ETLs who do not have degrees and they are fine. Target does some stupid things but they are not going wreck the company hoping to hire people with degrees for low pay who will be looking for a better job the entire time. Not going to happen.

 

[Rock Lobster]

Just my opinion on this whole thing....

First of all, if I had to guess, this is just a random district out there with some weird freak hiring experiences! Most districts can't get quality college grads to stick around long enough to be ETLs, let alone trying to get them to be TLs beforehand for less pay! I am thinking this district is just paying pretty well for their area, and they are getting MORE applicants for ETLs than they have spots for (which is rarely the issue)... So that is the only way to do it (even though I totally disagree with forcing demotions on people without degrees... they need to instead change that districts goal to focus on performance of their TLs and set an expectation higher to having a bottom 20% or something... to speed up the whole process)

 

[naterstx]

A degree is prefered but that is it. We have been interviewing for TL and no degree is required nor does it appear to even be an issue. Anyone with a degree who is a Team Lead is just treading water waiting for better job and most Team Leads working on dergrees are doing so to get the out of Target. And I know ETLs who do not have degrees and they are fine. Target does some stupid things but they are not going wreck the company hoping to hire people with degrees for low pay who will be looking for a better job the entire time. Not going to happen.

Couldn't agree more. The idea that a person is going to spend 4-5 years getting a degree, only to work as a TL is ridiculous. Target has to know that a strategy of getting them in as TLs is, at best, going to lead to ridiculous TL turnover, and at worst could destroy the stores this practice is implemented in. It's just a terrible, terrible idea. As much as some like to think so, Target isn't dumb, they do a pretty good job of running a profitable business.

 

[GlobalTargetTM]

My store is doing the same thing. They started a program to introduce TM's to the TL world and only selected those capable of the job and who were or have completed a degree. Tis a shame >.<

Yup that happened at my store. I was in that program but it was a waste of time since seniority was still the more important factor. I just got to do extra work for free.

 

[pzychopopgroove]

tls earn their positions with the work they do at target, not with their schooling. I call bulls**t.

qft. :d

 

[team member 316]

That is just wrong. There is no need for TLs positions to require degrees.(this coming from someone who is working towards a second associates degree.)

 

[TLWorkerBee]

Damn, if this happens to all the overnight TLs at my store, I think I would be the only one left.

 

[team member 316]

One other thing I don't understand is how a college grad could have no retail experience at all. Did they really come this far without having a job yet?
Even if they were in some type if food service(whether it be in fast food or a real restaurant) I am sure most younger grads have had multiple jobs.

I thought it was a joke at my store when they hired an AP TL and one of our ETLs said " We are getting a new AP TL. Be nice to him because this is his first job." I curiously said "Oh his first job in retail/ap?" and the ETL said "no it is the first job he has ever had" :facepalm: I just stood there in silence. I think he was gone within a couple weeks and the excuse he gave is he couldn't handle it.

 

[mrknownothing]

I don't really see how a degree would help a TL anyways. I can understand why an ETL would need a degree, because they are in management. But all a TL really needs is knowledge of their work (through experience, not education) and leadership skills.

 

[naterstx]

I don't really see how a degree would help a TL anyways. I can understand why an ETL would need a degree, because they are in management. But all a TL really needs is knowledge of their work (through experience, not education) and leadership skills.

There are very few jobs at Target that actually NEED a degree, as in accountants, pharmacists, etc. A lot of degrees (i.e. Bachelors in Business Administration) simply teach you concepts and basics, there's very little you learn that is actually useful in any real way (unlike an accountant, who learns vital things in school). TLs do have a decent amount of paperwork (think: Business walks, interviews, coaching/counseling), but I agree that the most useful things a TL can know are simply learned on the job, but the same is also probably accurate for ETLs, most jobs at DCs, even STLs probably learn 90% of what's useful for their job, while working their job.

The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.

 

[StateofTarget]

There are very few jobs at Target that actually NEED a degree, as in accountants, pharmacists, etc. A lot of degrees (i.e. Bachelors in Business Administration) simply teach you concepts and basics, there's very little you learn that is actually useful in any real way (unlike an accountant, who learns vital things in school). TLs do have a decent amount of paperwork (think: Business walks, interviews, coaching/counseling), but I agree that the most useful things a TL can know are simply learned on the job, but the same is also probably accurate for ETLs, most jobs at DCs, even STLs probably learn 90% of what's useful for their job, while working their job.

The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.

I agree totally with you.

The only times I had ever wished my fellow TLs were a little more educated have been during annual reviews. Sometimes other TLs ask me to look over the reviews they have written. My god.... the spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. was 5th grade level with at least 3 TLs in my store. (how the hell you can still manage spelling errors when using MS Word is beyond me, but they found a way) If you had showed the reviews to a high school teacher and asked how old they thought the writer was they would have said 8 years old. It was that bad. Still, they are damn good TLs when it doesn't come to writing.

 

[mrknownothing]

The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.

I never thought about it that way before...

 

[redeye58]

The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.

This at least indicates that Spot is hopfeully returning to promoting within. The past yr we've had countless outside hires for ETL & I was tasked with training many of them in front end practices. It's hard enough learning leadership protocols but even more when you're also having to learn the company culture from the very people you'll be leading. It also makes it extremely difficult when you're being coached for not following best practices from someone who isn't even familiar with BP.
If Target is resuming promotions from within, it's a step in the right direction & they are correct in demanding that ETL candidates have a degree. To maintain continuity & upward trending, it would be nice if TLs were either working on a degree or rotated in depts so as not to be an obstacle for others moving up the ladder but it shouldn't be mandatory.

 

[naterstx]

This at least indicates that Spot is hopfeully returning to promoting within. The past yr we've had countless outside hires for ETL & I was tasked with training many of them in front end practices. It's hard enough learning leadership protocols but even more when you're also having to learn the company culture from the very people you'll be leading. It also makes it extremely difficult when you're being coached for not following best practices from someone who isn't even familiar with BP.
If Target is resuming promotions from within, it's a step in the right direction & they are correct in demanding that ETL candidates have a degree. To maintain continuity & upward trending, it would be nice if TLs were either working on a degree or rotated in depts so as not to be an obstacle for others moving up the ladder but it shouldn't be mandatory.

I can't speak specifically to Targets hypothetical motivation(s) for hiring TLs w/ a degree (or one in progress), I don't know why this is happening (if it is), and even if I did, obviously I couldn't talk about it for confidentiality reasons. However, it simply seems logical to me.

If you've got two candidates for an open TL position, they're both smart, hard working, they've got a good attitude towards work and life in general, but one is a senior in college, the other has never gotten any education beyond HS... who would you hire? It's not that the guy/girl with the HS education is a bad fit, heck maybe they even have a better understanding of the business, but that college senior has potential for ETL, STL, and even higher, the HS grad doesn't. Hiring within is something almost all companies prefer, it makes sense on so many levels, the only draw back is pay, but even that isn't always the case. Requiring TLs to have degrees is a bad idea IMO, but preferring it? That just sounds like good business to me.

 

[StateofTarget]

I can't speak specifically to Targets hypothetical motivation(s) for hiring TLs w/ a degree (or one in progress), I don't know why this is happening (if it is), and even if I did, obviously I couldn't talk about it for confidentiality reasons. However, it simply seems logical to me.

If you've got two candidates for an open TL position, they're both smart, hard working, they've got a good attitude towards work and life in general, but one is a senior in college, the other has never gotten any education beyond HS... who would you hire? It's not that the guy/girl with the HS education is a bad fit, heck maybe they even have a better understanding of the business, but that college senior has potential for ETL, STL, and even higher, the HS grad doesn't. Hiring within is something almost all companies prefer, it makes sense on so many levels, the only draw back is pay, but even that isn't always the case. Requiring TLs to have degrees is a bad idea IMO, but preferring it? That just sounds like good business to me.

I can see where you are coming from. I have noticed that with some of the "lifers" eventually they grow bitter and angry that they have not been able to move up..... so I can see why they would want to avoid that.

However, we are all forgetting about the Sr TL position. I mean, if you are a Sr TL you are pretty much an ETL. (and over time can actually make more than an ETL especially when you factor in the extra hours ETLs put in) So to say that TL's can't make it to ETL because of the lack of a degree is not actually true. SR TL/ETL... pretty much the same thing. Now of course you can argue TL's without a degree could never make it to STL or above, but in all honesty how many ETLs have you ever seen make it any higher than ETL?

I have been with the company 6+ years and in all that time I have seen absolutely zero ETL's promote above ETL. I have, however, seen a ton of them leave or get termed. And I mean a ton of them. ETL's might dream of being STL, but it is a dream that few ever even get close to obtaining. Let's remember that STLs usually make $100,000+ a year. It is not a position the company just hands out to anyone. Most STL's I have asked usually have a Master's degree in business admin or something equally impressive. (again, something most ETLs do not have) Hell, our last two STL's were external hires. Seems you've got a better chance of making it to STL if you come from Macy's than an ETL does.

Anyway - the point is the company starting to demand TL's have degrees on the basis that "one day they can make STL" is pretty much BS. But for Target I could see them do it. I can think of at least 5 really damn good TM's at my store that have been told "one day" they will make TL who have worked their asses off for years and are still TM's.... always being told TL is right around the corner....

 

[Formina Sage]

I can see where you are coming from. I have noticed that with some of the "lifers" eventually they grow bitter and angry that they have not been able to move up..... so I can see why they would want to avoid that.

However, we are all forgetting about the Sr TL position. I mean, if you are a Sr TL you are pretty much an ETL. (and over time can actually make more than an ETL especially when you factor in the extra hours ETLs put in) So to say that TL's can't make it to ETL because of the lack of a degree is not actually true. SR TL/ETL... pretty much the same thing. Now of course you can argue TL's without a degree could never make it to STL or above, but in all honesty how many ETLs have you ever seen make it any higher than ETL?

I have been with the company 6+ years and in all that time I have seen absolutely zero ETL's promote above ETL. I have, however, seen a ton of them leave or get termed. And I mean a ton of them. ETL's might dream of being STL, but it is a dream that few ever even get close to obtaining. Let's remember that STLs usually make $100,000+ a year. It is not a position the company just hands out to anyone. Most STL's I have asked usually have a Master's degree in business admin or something equally impressive. (again, something most ETLs do not have) Hell, our last two STL's were external hires. Seems you've got a better chance of making it to STL if you come from Macy's than an ETL does.

Anyway - the point is the company starting to demand TL's have degrees on the basis that "one day they can make STL" is pretty much BS. But for Target I could see them do it. I can think of at least 5 really damn good TM's at my store that have been told "one day" they will make TL who have worked their asses off for years and are still TM's.... always being told TL is right around the corner....

My two cents, not trying to be argumentative. Two of the ETLs that went through my store have promoted to STLs. And an MBA is a relatively easy professional degree to get. Just saying.

 

[naterstx]

I can see where you are coming from. I have noticed that with some of the "lifers" eventually they grow bitter and angry that they have not been able to move up..... so I can see why they would want to avoid that.

However, we are all forgetting about the Sr TL position. I mean, if you are a Sr TL you are pretty much an ETL. (and over time can actually make more than an ETL especially when you factor in the extra hours ETLs put in) So to say that TL's can't make it to ETL because of the lack of a degree is not actually true. SR TL/ETL... pretty much the same thing. Now of course you can argue TL's without a degree could never make it to STL or above, but in all honesty how many ETLs have you ever seen make it any higher than ETL?

I have been with the company 6+ years and in all that time I have seen absolutely zero ETL's promote above ETL. I have, however, seen a ton of them leave or get termed. And I mean a ton of them. ETL's might dream of being STL, but it is a dream that few ever even get close to obtaining. Let's remember that STLs usually make $100,000+ a year. It is not a position the company just hands out to anyone. Most STL's I have asked usually have a Master's degree in business admin or something equally impressive. (again, something most ETLs do not have) Hell, our last two STL's were external hires. Seems you've got a better chance of making it to STL if you come from Macy's than an ETL does.

Anyway - the point is the company starting to demand TL's have degrees on the basis that "one day they can make STL" is pretty much BS. But for Target I could see them do it. I can think of at least 5 really damn good TM's at my store that have been told "one day" they will make TL who have worked their asses off for years and are still TM's.... always being told TL is right around the corner....

I get what you're trying to say, but I think you're ignoring the numbers game that is promotions in any company/business.

Almost all businesses are shaped like a pyramid, the lowest level gets paid the least, tends to work most directly with the customer(s), has the most physically demanding job, they are the easiest to replace, the least qualified, etc. They're absolutely essential to the business function, but they are the bottom (this would be TMs). Next you have supervisors, they tend to be more experienced, less directly involved with customers, less physically demanded upon, higher paid, and have higher education levels both internally and externally (TLs). And it goes up and up to the CEO/President/Owner. The common theme, and why the pyramid analogy is used, is that there are fewer and fewer as you go up.

Look at your average Target, how many TMs are there? 80 at minimum? Maybe, 3-4x that at a high volume Super Target? Now how many TLs are there at these stores? ETLs? Only one STL, only one DTL.... you get where I'm going? For every TL position that opens up, how many TMs want that spot? How many externals want that spot? Not everyone can get it. How often does a TL spot open up? Now magnify that with ETLs, how many TLs and externals want that spot? Now look at STL, a position that people would readily move across the country for, how many ETLs are competing for that one open STL position?

Of course you won't see many ETLs move up to STL. It's a bit odd that no ETL you've come in contact with has been promoted, but it's not unreasonable. You're talking about dozens, if not hundreds of ETLs looking to take that ONE STL position. All have degrees, many are happy/motivated/strong workers, many have produced increased sales/performance, but only one can get that position. Now think about a DTL position opening? Every STL in the country is going to want that job, but only one can get it. How often is a DTL spot going to open up? It's a numbers game, only the best of the best are going to make it to STL in anything resembling a quick fashion and some pretty good ETLs will NEVER get a STL spot. It's not bias towards externals, it's not Target being mean, it's life in the business world.


Also, MBAs are pretty darn easy to get. I have several friends and relatives who have their MBA, the universal opinion is that it was WAY easier than getting a Bachelors.

 

[StateofTarget]

"Also, MBAs are pretty darn easy to get. I have several friends and relatives who have their MBA, the universal opinion is that it was WAY easier than getting a Bachelors. "

You have to ask where they got it though. Was it an online "school" like University of Phoenix? If you read about such schools many employers (not sure about Target) no longer accept anyone with their degrees because they have questionable accreditation. There was even a news article in which a journalist signed up for an MBA program at an online "school" and passed everything simply by cutting and pasting articles off the internet when turning in his papers. He even sent a pudding recipe in and got an A.

Try getting an MBA from a state university. I promise it won't be easy.

 

[Formina Sage]

He even sent a pudding recipe in and got an A.

A la Wikipedia:

[citation needed]

 

[StateofTarget]

A la Wikipedia:

[citation needed]

Ok, take your pick. You know University Phoenix, Devry, basically any other school you see advertised on the internet and TV is a scam, right? Everyone knows that. Tons of people tout a "degree" from these places, but they are not even accredited half the time. Real schools (i.e. University of Michigan) won't even take transfer credits from the places because they are not considered legit schools. You realize that these schools are all called "for profit" schools, right? And you know they are actually traded on the stock market and make tons of money for investors, right?

Here are sources from ABC news, CNN, PBS, CBS news, and the freaking New York Times all saying this. Um, need anymore sources? Watch the PBS videos. One school even went in and signed up mentally damaged veterans who had battle trauma and couldn't even remember their name.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/ Huge video documentary on scam for profit schools. i.e. Devry, University Phoenix, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/educating-sergeant-pantzke/ Another video documentary on scam for profit schools.


http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogs/2007/02/u_of_phoenix

"The New York Times says that "the relentless pressure for higher profits" has "eroded academic quality" and led to improper recruiting practices at the University of Phoenix. But in this regard, the university, which is owned by a publicly traded corporation known as the Apollo Group, is hardly alone.

Over the last several years, some of the largest publicly-traded, for-profit higher education companies -- such as Apollo, Career Education Corporation, Corinthian Colleges, and ITT Educational Services -- have come under scrutiny from federal and state regulators and have faced numerous class-action lawsuits by former employees, shareholders, and students over allegations that they have engaged in aggressive and misleading recruiting and admissions tactics to inflate their enrollment numbers, while providing academic offerings of dubious value.

The U.S. Education Department certainly found this to be the case in 2004, when reviewers there wrote a scathing report about how the corporate bosses at the University of Phoenix pressure and intimidate their recruiters to put "asses in the classes," including those of unqualified students."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/05/eveningnews/main6838102.shtml

"Two years after graduation, Michelle Zuver doesn't know how her college debt reached $86,000. She was told the cost would be less for a criminal justice degree she says many police agencies don't recognize. Her degree came from Westwood College, a for-profit school with 17 campuses, reports CBS News correspondent Wyatt Andrews.

Widespread complaints like this - overpriced degrees, misleading claims, and an alarming level of student debt - led to some embarrassing revelations this year on the entire for-profit college industry, including Westwood. When the Government Accountability Office went undercover to investigate how 12 for-profit colleges recruited their students and found that every one - 12 of 12 - made deceptive claims and that four colleges encouraged fraud. In a video, a Westwood sales rep tells the GAO agent not to report a quarter-million dollar bank account in order to maximize his student loans."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/09/02/for.profit.college.debt/index.html

"Dane Lockman saw a commercial advertising Westwood College while watching late-night television. The then-29-year-old single father, with a budding interest in web design, decided he would be the first in his immediate family to attend college.

By October 2006, he was enrolled in the for-profit institution to complete a bachelor's degree in graphic design. To pay for school, he took out $40,000 in private and government loans.

Lockman says he earned A's and B's at Westwood, but he wanted to take his education further by transferring to Georgia State University in late 2007, a public school that is regionally accredited, which is considered to be the "gold standard" of college education. But since Westwood is nationally accredited, Georgia State University refused to recognize Lockman's credits.

Lockman says Westwood admissions representatives never warned him about the difference.

Today, he's without a degree or a full-time job and unable to pay back his loans. He says his savings are gone. His credit score is shot because of his student debt, and he can't get credit cards. His student loans will incessantly haunt him, even if he declares bankruptcy.

Lockman is not alone.

At least 750 former Westwood students and employees have come forward with complaints about the school engaging in deceptive recruiting practices that have left some students with an unmanageable amount of debt, according to a class-action lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Denver, Colorado, in August.

Some students, like Lockman, have also complained that the school failed to give them accurate information about future job prospects or whether their degrees would be recognized by other schools or employers."

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/profit...igate-recruiters-university/story?id=11411379

"Ads for online schools are all over the Internet, plastered on billboards in subway cars and on television. The University of Phoenix, with nearly 500,000 students, is the biggest for-profit college. But some former students said they were duped into paying big bucks and going deeply in debt by slick and misleading recruiters.

"I don't want anyone else to be sucked in," said Melissa Dalmier, 30, of Noble, Ill.

The mother of three had big dreams to be an elementary school teacher, so when she saw ads for the University of Phoenix pop-up on her computer, she e-mailed them for more information. A few minutes later, Dalmier said she got a call from one of the school's recruiters, who she said told her that enrolling in the associate's degree in education program at the University of Phoenix would put her on the fast-track to reaching her dream.

But just a few months after Dalmier started, she said she learned the horrible truth: the degree program she was enrolled in would not qualify her to become a public school teacher upon graduation in Illinois.

"It was an outright lie. A bold faced lie," she said.

It's not the first time that the controversial school, which obtains almost 90 percent of its revenues from students paying tuition from federal aid, has come under fire for its recruiting methods.

The University of Phoenix was one of 15 for-profit schools whose aggressive recruiting practices were the subject of hearings held by Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa. The Government Accountability Office sent investigators to for-profit schools across the country and found that all of them were misleading potential students.

"These schools are marketing machines masquerading as universities," said Steve Eisman, a renowned hedge fund investor who made billions betting against the housing market, at a recent conference and during his testimony before the Senate on the for-profit sector. "I thought there would never again be an opportunity to be involved in the short side as an industry as social destructive and morally bankrupt as the sub-prime mortgage industry...Unfortunately, I was wrong."

Benson Rawlins was considered homeless last year when he met two recruiters from the University of Phoenix, who gave three seminars at Y-Haven, a shelter for transitional men in Cleveland, Ohio, or in effect, a homeless shelter.

Rawlins doesn't have a GED, but said the recruiters had no qualms trying to sell him an expensive associate's degree. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/o...vulnerable-gis.html?_r=1&ref=forprofitschools

"A number of for-profit colleges have questionable academic credentials or lack accreditation accepted by other institutions. This makes it very difficult for students to transfer credits to other schools. Not surprisingly, for-profit colleges also tend to have a higher-than-average student loan default rate, which means that, in the end, the college experience there may hinder, rather than help, the careers and financial prospects of their graduates. "

 

[StateofTarget]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/o...d-of-accountability.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/education/09forprofit.html?ref=forprofitschools

"The Department of Justice and four states on Monday filed a multibillion-dollar fraud suit against the Education Management Corporation, the nation’s second-largest for-profit college company, charging that it was not eligible for the $11 billion in state and federal financial aid it had received from July 2003 through June 2011.

While the civil lawsuit is one of many raising similar charges against the expanding for-profit college industry, the case is the first in which the government intervened to back whistle-blowers’ claims that a company consistently violated federal law by paying recruiters based on how many students it enrolled. The suit said that each year, Education Management falsely certified that it was complying with the law, making it eligible to receive student financial aid.

“The depth and breadth of the fraud laid out in the complaint are astonishing,” said Harry Litman, a lawyer in Pittsburgh and former federal prosecutor who is one of those representing the two whistle-blowers whose 2007 complaints spurred the suit. “It spans the entire company — from the ground level in over 100 separate institutions up to the most senior management — and accounts for nearly all the revenues the company has realized since 2003.”

The complaint said the company had a “boiler-room style sales culture” in which recruiters were instructed to use high-pressure sales techniques and inflated claims about career placement to increase student enrollment, regardless of applicants’ qualifications. Recruiters were encouraged to enroll even applicants who were unable to write coherently, who appeared to be under the influence of drugs or who sought to enroll in an online program but had no computer.

Publicly traded for-profit college companies have recently been a target both of government scrutiny and whistle-blower suits. In 2009, the Apollo Group, which owns the University of Phoenix, the largest for-profit college, settled a whistle-blower case for $78 million. "




http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/education/27edmc.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/opinion/12thu3.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/opinion/12collins.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/education/04education.html?ref=forprofitschools

"Undercover investigators posing as students interested in enrolling at 15 for-profit colleges found that recruiters at four of the colleges encouraged prospective students to lie on their financial aid applications — and all 15 misled potential students about their programs’ cost, quality and duration, or the average salary of graduates, according to a federal report.

The report gave specific instances in which some colleges encouraged fraud. At one college in Texas, a recruiter encouraged the undercover investigator not to report $250,000 in savings, saying it was “not the government’s business.” At a Pennsylvania college, the financial representative told an undercover applicant who had reported a $250,000 inheritance that he should have answered “zero” when asked about money he had in savings — and then told him she would “correct” his form by reducing the reported assets to zero, a change she later confirmed by e-mail and voicemail.

At a college in California, an undercover investigator was encouraged to list three nonexistent dependents on the financial aid application.

In addition to the colleges that encouraged fraud, all the colleges made some deceptive statements. At one certificate program in Washington, for example, the admissions representative told the undercover applicant that barbers could earn $150,000 to $250,000 a year, when the vast majority earn less than $50,000 a year. And at an associate degree program in Florida, the report said, a prospective student was falsely told that the college was accredited by the same organization that accredits Harvard and the University of Florida.

And one Florida college owned by a publicly traded company told an undercover applicant that she needed to take a 50-question test, and answer 18 questions correctly, to be admitted — and then had a representative sit with her and coach her through the test. A representative at that college encouraged the applicant to sign an enrollment contract, while assuring her it was not legally binding. "


So, need anymore citations? That was the result of a 10 minute Google search. Can you imagine if I spent a whole hour? Everyone knows these are scam schools. Practically every news organization in the country has an article about it. Employers will not take degrees from these schools. That includes MBAs, Bachelor's degrees, Associates, etc.

 

[naterstx]

"Also, MBAs are pretty darn easy to get. I have several friends and relatives who have their MBA, the universal opinion is that it was WAY easier than getting a Bachelors. "

You have to ask where they got it though. Was it an online "school" like University of Phoenix? If you read about such schools many employers (not sure about Target) no longer accept anyone with their degrees because they have questionable accreditation. There was even a news article in which a journalist signed up for an MBA program at an online "school" and passed everything simply by cutting and pasting articles off the internet when turning in his papers. He even sent a pudding recipe in and got an A.

Try getting an MBA from a state university. I promise it won't be easy.

Nope, all the people I was referencing went to "real" schools. The reason, per my understanding, that an MBA is easier is not that the curriculum is easier, but that the general concepts and methods are similar to getting a BBA (what most MBA students have). Getting a MBA is something to be proud of, but it's something most business majors can do without extensive effort... at most schools.